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TWELVE COMMON THINGS GUYS DO TO SCREW UP WITH GIRLS


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#1 JSBach

JSBach

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Posted 24 June 2007 - 02:30 AM

This thread is being rewritten!

Despite the date of this post, it's been revised and written for today (April 27, 2011).

This was my first of several threads on AF. For some reason, it's also the most "bumped", popping back up every-so-often. I guess the title sounds kinda catchy.

I don't mean to be arrogant, but since it was first written four years ago, countless guys have told me how much my writings have helped them with courtship and gaining confidence. Some of you who're new to this forum might think I'm a complete a--hole. But the advice and insights I've provided does work. If you've strugged in the social marketplace, this series will explain why. It will also offer guideline for improving your results.

I've decided to rewrite it for the modern context and to correct a lot of mistakes since it was first penned four years ago. Back in June 2007 when this thread debutted, Facebook and texting were still in their infancy. Now, they're standard methods of communicating.

Like on my other threads, a chapter will appear on my blog first before printed on this thread.

By the way, this is a courtship thread, not a relationship thread. Don't post messages saying that it won't work in relationships.

To begin anew on the Twelwe Common Mistakes, let me first start with a theory of courtship. It is necessary to understand the rest of the thread.

=======================

A brief theory of courtship

Women are biologically programmed througn eons of evolution to seek one thing: the survival of herself and her offsprings. Naturally, no endeavor can be more important.

The best way to promote her survival is to mate with a man of high social value, guys who are popular, has high social standing and wealth. Logically, such a guy can better promote a women's survival than someone who's shunned, anti-social and poor.

As such, a guy will improve his chances of attracting a girl if he displays high social value through...

- Speech
- Behavior
- Body language
- Social patterns
- Clothing
- Physical appearance
- Material possessions

When she sees high social value traits in you, her brain automatically equates "you" with "survival", and chemicals gets released making her physically and emotionally desire you. It doesn't matter if your assets are real of if you're a total poser. As long as she sees those traits and believes it's real, it will produce an involuntary attraction as programmed heretically.

The funny thing is, in courtship, it's better for you to be of low social value but display high value traits than to be of high social value but display low value traits. Of course, you want both (and people usally have both or neither). But in courtship, if you had to choose, you should choose to have the traits rather than the actual value.

So attracting girls is simple, somewhat. You want to do things that demonstrate higher value (DHV) and avoid the things that demonstrate lower value (DLV). You want to give the impression that hooking up with you will boost her chances of survival. Yes, it's all an illusion. The man who can best produce that illusion, whether his assets are real or fake, will be the more successful man in courtship.

With that, let's begin....

======================

Mistake #1 - Being constantly too nice and too available

It's a common theme in chick flicks. The guy showers the girl with attention. He is "always there", even in the pouring rain without an umbrella. He focuses only on her. He will return her call or text within 90 seconds, guaranteed. They met not too long ago but he's already treating her like a girlfriend.

At first, she shows disinterest, even resistance. But eventually, he wins her over -- proving that persistance pays off, right?

B-U-L-L-S-H---T!

Rule #1 - Forget everything you've learned about love in movies and TV dramas. If you want to read fairy tales, I suggest you exit this series and hop down to the Children's section of your local bookstore.

I started this thread with this "mistake" because I believe it's the #1 reason why Asian guys fail in courtship. About half of the other "mistakes" revealed in this series will be somehow related to this one.

The reason this behavior leads to courtship failure is straight-forward. Girls are biologically programmed to seek and mate with social leaders. Social leaders do not kiss ass. They have better sh*t to do than always "being there" and returning all your calls. Altruism may get you into the seminary, but it will not get you laid. A man doesn't become a real estate mogul, a 4-star general or a powerful senator because he constantly elevates other people's feelings and interests above his own. Sadly, to succeed in this world, sometimes you just got to be an asshole and look out for yourself. Her subconscious knows that -- which is why, ironically, if you're a "nice guy", you signal to her that you won't be successful.

When you're "too nice", she will see you more of a plutonic buddy than a romantic interest. If you overdo it, she'll likely lose all respect for you and become annoyed (like swatting off a pesky little brother). You have to learn that a girl can never become attracted to you if she doesn't respect you. An integral part of earning respect is saying NO, standing up for yourself and not be some chickenshit kiss-ass.

The moral of the story is, quit the Nice Guy routine and be your own imperfect man, even if means you don't do or say the most perfect, attentive things. The rest of this series will teach how.

Playing the Mr Nice Guy routine may make her initally attracted to you, especially the less-attractive girls who aren't used to the attention. But her feeling will likely fade fast. She might even hate herself for not being attracted. "Why don't I like him?" Don't blame her. She's just doing what she's biologically programmed to do. You can't blame her for that, just as you cannot blame her for having a vagina.

DLV - Being too nice constantly and predictably
DHV - Sometimes being indifferent, disinterested or even a bit of an asshole

=======================

Supplemental - 25 examples of a Mr Nice Guy

We talked about the Nice Guy routine in the last chapter and I gave a few examples. Here are 25 more examples of a Nice Guy.

There are for the pre-dating stage. If you're not even dating yet and you do these things, you're surely headed for the friendzone.

1. You tell her, your friends or yourself that you don't think of her in a sexual way because you "respect her too much".

2. You tell her that you're "different" from other guys.

3. For her birthday, you spend more than 5 minutes thinking what to get her.

4. When you're with her, you purposely reduce friendliness to other girls to show you're not a player.

5. When you see nobody responded to her Facebook post, you feel compelled to respond so she won't feel bad.

6. You say "I don't care, what do YOU wanna do?"

7. You tell her that you want to know more about her.

8. You text, Facebook her or drop her a card telling you're thinking of her or saying hi "just because".

9. More than 20% of your texts contain smiley faces.

10. You talk about feminine things that she enjoys talking about.

11. You check your cellphone to ensure none of her text are ignored, even the spam ones.

12. When conversation ends, she's almost always the one who ends it first.

13. You tell her that seeing her makes your day brighter.

14. You've never refuse to answer any of her personal questions.

15. She saw you crying. Nuff said (you pussy).

16. You never (or rarely) reject her initiation to hang out or chat.

17. She's 30 minutes late, yet, you still wait.

18. You ask for a hug.

19. You try learning about her ex-boyfriends so that you will know how to win her.

20. You lean towards her when seated face-to-face.

21. You dread saying the wrong thing to her and feeling that you've just ruined your chances.

22. Out-of-the-blue, you say she's cute.

23. She can't walk by without you acknowledging her in some way.

24. You tell her that you'll always be there to chat, "no matter what".

25. You do favors for her, even when she doesn't do them for you.

Further reasons why many of these examples are bad for courtship will be discussed in future articles of this series.

=======================

Mistake #2 - Chasing

Chasing is defined as persistent attempts by the guy to overcome a girl's indifference or resistance.

Conventional wisdom says you have to chase, but it is a horrible strategy. One reason why was revealed in the previous chapter. A chaser is almost always a Mr Nice Guy using Mr Nice Guy tactics. But there's another reason why chasing is a bad idea...

When a guy chases, he demonstrates unconditional interest even though she has done nothing to deserve it. And that's the problem. People don't value something easy-to-get. Easy guys are the epitome of low valueness. People inherently value something if they felt they had to earn it. Let's say you were awarded Employee of the Month for working your ass off. You'd probably appreciate the award more than if you were selected simply because you're Asian (and the company needed to demonstrate "diversity").

The same concept holds true in the psychology of courtship. Yes, you should initiate interest. But unless she performs her share, you don't pursue it relentlessly. Do not keep calling, flirting, giving gifts, texting or messaging her Facebook. You must step back and let her come to you. If she doesn't, then you need to work on being more attractive, which will be discussed in the rest of this series, or seek pastures elsewhere. The more you chase, the lower value she'll perceive of you.

By showing interest and then backing off, you're doing what many PUAs call a "takeaway". A takeaway means, you stop or reduce giving attention or affection so she'd miss it and work on earning it back. She won't miss something that's always there unconditionally.

Needing to be earned is one major sign of a high value guy. She would think "wow, this must be a high value guy because I had to pursue him!" There's an interesting, reinforcing and ironic circle here. The more she has to chase, the higher value she'll think of you. And the higher value she'd think of you, the more likely she'd chase. Interesting, don't you agree?!

Most girls will say this won't work ("I don't chase guys"). That's a bunch of crap. Girls will chase, but only if you give them a reason. This is especially true in the modern context where girls are more aggressive than ever.

Ultimately, you'd find courtship is like running after a butterfly with a net. If you do, it will flutter away in fear. But if you sit there and be attractive, it might just float onto your shoulders when you'd least expect it.

DLV - Chasing (giving your affection for free)
DHV - Requiring her to earn your affection

=======================

Mistake #3 - Expecting her to initiate

I know a lot of you younger guys want girls to come to you, perhaps for your good looks, your ripping muscles or your sense of humor. Who wouldn't want to be approached, to have a feeling of power?

If that's your expectation though, you will have a shitty time with women for the rest of your life. Humans are biologically programmed to expect men to be leaders and women to be followers. As such, girls can get away with not taking social initiative, but NOT GUYS. You will have nothing in life worth having (whether in courtship, business, education, etc.) if you expect the other person to approach first.

The truth is, girls do not develop emotional attraction for a guy based on appearances alone. The reason is simple. Girls want social leaders, and social leaders are hard to detect visually. Ugly guys can be social leaders (like Bill Gates); good looking guys can work the graveshift shift at Burger King. Her primodal brain knows that, which is why apperances are not of utmost concern (as it is for guys).

You must rely NOT on your appearance to get her to come to you, but on demonstrating leadership skills by going to her.

There is something extremely attractive to girls about guys who takes charge. If you wait or allow her to approach first, you lose a vital opportunity to show leadership skills at the get-go. You might be thrilled that she initiated something. But in reality, you've already given her a negative first impression. Any other acts of "Nice Guy-ness" on your part will feed on that initial impression ("ah, I knew right away he's a wuss").

By the way, if a girl initiates a date, I think you'd find most of the time, she wants something ulterior (help on homework? a ride to work? a free lunch?). If she's emotionally invested, she is unlikely to do something that bold for fear of having her fragile ego deflated.

Don't believe most girls who claim to prefer shy types. Perhaps the unattractive girls will (they have no choice). But not the decent ones, and certainly not the attractive ones. Even shy girls are fantasizing about outgoing guys.

So this is how it works:

- A girl determines whether a guy has social leadership skills
- Based on that, she determines if a guy is physically attractive

Yes, that means her visual perception is based mostly on non-physical cues. That's why girls can find ugly, freakish-looking Korean stars to be "hot". Most of these "hot" guys, before acquiring fame, would not even get a second glance from girls on the streets.

Lastly, understand the difference between taking initiative and chasing. Taking initiative simply means showing interest first. Chasing means you initiate repeatedly despite resistance or indifference. The best approach to initiating is one where you show interest, but in a non-pressuring and slightly indifferent way (not in a desperate, fixated way). We'll take more about the distinction between the two in the chapters ahead.

DLV - Waiting, expecting the girl to make the first move
DHV - Making the first move and taking charge

=======================

Mistake #4 - Not playing the field

Many people read my articles and other PUA/courtship materials wanting to know how to win over (or win back) a particular person. They believe somewhere in the deepest annuls of the Internet is a piece of wisdom that offers the key to unlocking her heart.

They're wasting their time.

With some variations, the best way to become more attractive to women have already been discovered. While it will make you more attractive in general, it will not necessarily make you more attractive to any given person. It's impossible to know any girl's unique tastes and vulnerabilities to formula a courtship strategy for that particular individual.

If you obsess over one person (what PUAs call "oneitis"), you will have a miserable social life. If you cannot stomach the fact that you probably won't wind up with your first choice, you should go home now. Rarely in life do we get our first choice of anything. So you better play the field and cast a big net.

Just as bad as oneitis is the belief that you can attract a girl by demonstrating you're a one-women man. In her presence, you might purposely ignore, avoid or reduce friendliness with other girls. Isn't that what girls want? Don't they want someone to make them feel secure, that you only have eyes for her?

WRONG!

Remember, girls are biologically attracted to social leaders. And popularity is the ultimate indication of social leader. In fact, your popularity and ability to provoke jealousy is your greatest asset in courtship -- more important than your looks, money, education, or anything you can think of. Many girls may not even know she's interested in you unless or until she feels jealous.

Having your social value raised through popularity is what PUAs call "social proof". The following factors determine your social proof...

- The number of people around you
- The number of girls around you
- The attractiveness of your companions
- How much your companions seem to like you

Simply put, girls want guys who are wanted by other girls (especially wanted by attractive girls).

To leverage this dynamic, you need to give the impression that your life is full of friends, girls, dates, music, parties, clubbing, roadtrips and other social activities. You must give this impression by what you say, what you do, what you wear, who you hang with, what you post on Facebook, etc. Lie or exaggerate a little if you must. Just make sure you sound credible and not bragging.

If she feels you have high social proof and you can make her jealous, you're 80% there. If you act like a "one woman" kinda guy, it will actually lower your social value. This is one of many ironic aspects of courtship where girls say they want one thing, but actually desire another.

DLV - Showing that you're a one-women man
DHV - Being popular, particularly with the ladies, and able to provoke jealousy

=======================

Supplemental to Mistake #4 - Not playing the field

In article four, we learned the importance of popularity and the ability to provoke jealousy. Here are some tips on what you can do to leverage this knowledge. Keep in mind, this is for the pre-dating period...

- Don't admit you've never had a girlfriend or that you haven't had one in a long time. If cornered to answer, make up an imaginary ex-girlfriend.

- If available, your Facebook should contain photos of you in a party setting with friends. If you don't have any, consider taking photos the next time you're in such a setting.

- Your interests on Facebook should speak of things like karaoking, partying, road-trips, etc. Avoid mentioning solitary activities like surfing the web or playing video games.

- At a social setting, make sure you talk to other people. In your target's presence, don't be afraid to flirt a bit with other girls (even your target's sister or friends). Just don't go overboard, as if you're doing it on purpose.

- I know most guys prefer a one-on-one date with a girl. But if she brings friends, it is actually a fantastic opportunity to gain social proof and provoke jealousy. Make sure you're also friendly with her friends on the outing. Afterwards, ask your target "so, what does Jane think about me?" You'll have an INSTANT jealousy plot.

- If you're going to be on Facebook for a long time, turn off your chat feature. You don't want your target to see you on the internet for hours. The same for MSN and Yahoo Messenger.

- Most of the time, don't say you didn't do anything over the weekend, especially on holiday weekends. “I hung out with some friends” is a good generic answer.

- Do not "burn your bridges" or let friendships die with female friends and acquaintances. Use them to build social proof for other girls. You will need as much female friends and acquaintances possible, especially attractive ones.

- To increase the number of people responding to your Facebook posts, make sure you liberally respond to other's posts. People tend to respond to yours if you respond to theirs.

- You need at least 100 friends on Facebook, preferably over 200. As pathetic as this sounds (and I've done it), you can find Facebook groups where people friend each other randomly just to inflate their friend count. I did it when I first starting using Facebook.

- However, do not have more than 500 friends on Facebook. It shows you're an internet geek.

- If you're in college or university, join a fraternity. Trust me on this one.

- Wear an interesting piece of accessory (necklace or bracelet). If a girl asks you where you got it, say your ex-girlfriend bought it for you.

- Don't say that you hate clubs, clubbing or clubbers.

- On occasion, if she calls, tell her that you're hanging out with some friends right now (even if you're not) and if you can call her back some other time.

- In a group of friends that include your target, you should sometimes ignore your target and pretend to be engrossed with interacting with others.

- Let her catch you looking at another girl.

- If you play lots and lots of Facebook games (like Farmville or Bejeweled), don't let it show on your wall and don't let it advertise on other people's wall.

=======================

Mistake #5 - Logically persuading her to like you

My sister has been on speed dating. In speed dating, you pay a membership fee to meet 20-25 singles for quick, one-on-one sessions lasting five minutes. In that short period, you need to maximize your opportunity and bragging becomes a necessity.

Unfortunately, most guys do the same thing in traditional social environments. He would purposely reveal qualities about himself trying to impress the girl...

- "I just got back on a very important business trip".
- "I'm an environmentalist. I believe in helping society".
- "I usually don't cuss. I believe people need to express themselves maturely".

Bad move.

Social value cannot be sold. A girl cannot be convinced into being attracted to you through your logic and advocacy. In fact, the very idea of you selling yourself decreases your social value. Bragging and self-advocacy are symptoms of inferiority complexes. Not only will girls consider you insecure, they'll probably think you're lying, exaggerating or have little other worth. Talk about a lose-lose proposition.

Furthermore, be careful about qualifying yourself. For example...

- "I work at McDonalds, but only when I finish the semester".
- "I'm attending a community college but plan on transferring to Cal next year".
- "I'm unemployed right now, but trust me...it's by choice".

In each of these qualifying statements, you're offering an excuse for something you seem embarrassed about. It's a form of advocacy.

When interacting with girls, you must never be perceived as bragging, advocating or qualifying, even if it wasn't your intention to do so. Your words and actions must imply a "take-it-or-leave-it" attitude. She is programmed to equate this attitude with high value guys. From experience, she knows high value guys just don't give a sh*t about impressing people.

If you can't brag or advocate, how can you reveal your positive traits? Storytelling is one effective strategy. For example, instead of telling her straight-up that you love animals (which is bragging), you can reveal a story about how you once took in a stray puppy and hid it in your closet and how your mom got pissed when she found dog sh*t in the closet. In your stories, sneak in your positive attributes as if it wasn't your intention to say it. Girls tend to be good listeners and will likely pickup subtle cues.

As such, the most effective way for her to know your attractive traits is for her to think she discovered it accidentally, not by you shoving it in her face. What is even more effective is, once she discovers your positive attribute, you modestly brush it aside as if it's no big deal. Modesty is a trait of seriously confident people.

DLV: Convincing her to like you
DHV: Have a "take it or leave it" attitude

=======================

Mistake #6 - Saying the perfect things

We've reached one of my favorite topics on courtship!

Most guys think attracting a girl involves being the perfect gentlemen and saying nice, agreeable things in order to "build rapport". He would talk on eggshells hoping not to utter a syllable that might put her off. Girls will often say they want "the perfect guy" who says the things that would melt her heart. Stupidly, many guys try rising to the challenge.

Focusing solely on "building rapport" is a crappy idea because creating attraction often requires breaking rapport in order to demonstrate certain traits. Consider this interaction:

Her: I really like cats
You: Me too!
Her: I have three cats!
You: My grandma has two. It's cool we're both cat-lovers!

Here, you might rush out and tell your buddies how you just met a girl who's your soulmate and a soon-to-be girlfriend. You have such great rapport! But to her, she's getting bored talking to a doormat without backbone. If she can't respect you, she will not be attracted to you, or even want to talk to you, no matter how good-looking she thinks you are.

Instead..

Her: Do you like cats?
You: Can't stand them.
Her: Hey, I have three of them in my apartment!
You: How much do you spend on air fresheners?
Her: They don't smell as bad as you.
You: What a lame comeback.
Her: Are you six years old or something?
You: Six-and-a-half, dweeb

This is clearly not gentlemanly talk. Yet, this kind of conversational teasing is effective in courtship because you demonstrate alpha-male traits that girls are attracted to. In it, he shows confidence, humor, unpredictability, doesn't give a f*ck and puts up a challenge. In short, these traits suggest a guy who's a social leader.

As long as you tease in a friendly tone and avoid topics that might offend (like her weight or something cruel and in bad taste), she will likely enjoy this type of playful banter and think you're a cool guy. However, don't tease all the time. Just enough so she'd know it's a normal part of your personality.

By the way, teasing is not meant to prove how smart you are or how good you are at trash-talk. You need to know the distinction between teasing for fun (good!) and teasing because you need to be right (bad!).

Ultimately, the ideal way to interact with girls is by treating her like her bratty older brother -- the guy who gives her a hard time but ultimately has a soft, protective side. Within reason, you need to speak and act as if you don't give a sh*t about consequences. Don't worry about saying something that you think might ruin everything. If one verbal gaffe really causes her to lose interest, she was never interested to begin with. There's far greater risk of you being too agreeable than being too disagreeable.



The link above goes to a video from some YouTube channel called SimplePickup. Their biweekly pickup videos demonstrates the art of teasing very well and is worth emulating even if you're not interacting in a pickup environment. Notice they have no problem speaking bluntly, even using profanity and mild sexual humor. They are definitely not getting phone numbers by being nice and gentlemanly.

DLV: Being agreeable and gentlemanly
DHV: Teasing her and being a smart-ass

=======================

#1 Supplemental to Mistake #6 - Saying the perfect things

In the last article, we learned the need to avoid acting gentlemanly and proper. Girls (and most folks in general) want to hang out with fun laidback people. People who act gentlemanly are seen as uptight or desperate to prove his worth.

As such, here are some advice on how to act less gentlemanly...

- Do not always say please and thank you. For example, instead of begging her to do something ("can you please get that pen for me"), command her in a friendly tone ("hey, get that pen?"). And there's no need to always thank her afterwards, especially with repeated "thanks" or "that's so sweet of you". Be a man and just accept the favor without compensating her with formality.

- Do not apologize if you haven't done anything wrong. Or worse, don't apologize when you don't know what you've done. For example, "I'm sorry, but what did I do wrong?" That's just pussy behavior. Of course, this doesn't including saying sorry if something bad happened ("I'm sorry your grandma died") since "sorry" in this context is just a gesture of sympathy.

- Do not jump to agree. I know if you find something in common, it's instinctual to quickly exploit it to build togetherness. But don't. The fact that you want to build togetherness at all is a beta move.

- Resist the urge to say something really sweet like "seeing you made my day brighter" or "I thought of you last night". Don't be such a sissy f-cking homo. Ask your female friends what phrases a guy can say to "melt a girl's heart". Those are the phrases to avoid.

- Do not “become her”. What I mean is, if she's into Korean dramas, you don't also start watching them to become more like her. If she's majoring in Italian, you don't start learning Italian phrases. What you're doing is imitating and that's what subordinates do (like a little brother mimicking his big brother).

- You should not respond to her every text, call or Facebook post.

- You do not need to acknowledge every time she passes by. Sometimes, don't say anything at all. The same with goodbyes.

- Watch how you greet people. Don't say, "it's a pleasure to meet you" or "how do you do"? That's too formal and you sound like a stiff. Cool people like rock stars would probably greet with something like "sup guys" or "hey what's going on?" That's something you should emulate.

- It's OK to do something courteous like opening the door for her, carrying her bags or giving your jacket if she's cold. But if you do, try to make some light teasing remark as well ("lemme hold your bag, you wimp") and don't make a big production out of it.

- Do not use big fancy academic words. It's OK to speak with minor profanity.

- Never be indecisive and ask "what do YOU wanna do?" Never cater to her every desire or whim.

- If you're on a first date or outing, do not show up with a gift.

- Speaking of gifts, unless you and her start seriously dating, don't give any gifts at all unless it's Christmas, her birthday or a special occasion (like her graduation). And if you must give something, it must be simple -- as if you didn't spend more than five minutes thinking of it. Giving elaborate or repeated gifts is a sign you're not good enough and that you must bribe people for affection.

- On a first date or outing, do not overdress. You should look pleasant but not as if you spent more than twenty minutes preparing.

- Do not allow her to unfairly get her way. For example, if you guys agreed to eat at a certain location but she calls last minute wanting to go elsewhere, do not concede. You might think you're being gentlemanly. But if she knows she can step all over you, she will see you as lacking backbone.

- Despite our "no gentlemanly conduct" advice, you need to pay when on a date or outing. Just make sure it's done as if it's no big deal and change the subject quickly after agreeing to pay the tab.

=======================

#2 Supplemental to Mistake #6 - Saying the perfect things

Before getting back to the series, I want to do another supplemental on teasing.

We learned teasing and being a smart-ass is a more effective way to generate attraction than being a perfect gentleman. This supplement will give a few suggestions on several types of teasing to add to your repetoire...

Strategy #1 - Disagreeing with her

Responding to something she said...

You: Are you sure about that? (with skeptical tone)
You: Are you serious?
You: I'm not sure about that!
You: I don't believe that!
You: Whatever!


Strategy #2 - Spite her

Here, you answer NO or MAYBE to something she said, especially if she's expecting you to say YES...

Her: Isn't my cat cute?
You: No!

Her: Are you going to tell me how old you are?
You: Maybe later

Her: Do you think it's OK for a girl to smoke? (she's a smoker)
You: No way.


Strategy #3 - Conditional agreement

Here, you say YES, but you apply conditions...

Her: Are you going to Facebook me?
You: Only if you're nice

Her: Are you going to get me something on your trip?
You: Only if you behave yourself.


Strategy #4 - Make fun of her

[She carries a large purse]
You: So why does a small person like you carry such a large purse?

[Her shirt is unusual, ugly, weird, etc]
You: That is a...um...very interesting shirt.
Her: You like it?
You: Not really.

Her: I like to be on top of things
You: That sounds perverted!


Strategy #5: Answering a question with a question

Here, you deflect her question by asking a question of your own.

Her: Where do you live?
You: Why? You gonna come over or something?

Her: What is your [ethnicity, age, job, etc]
You: Why do you wanna know?


Strategy #6: Stereotyping

Stereotyping is a form of extremist and exaggerated thinking that guys commonly do that girls don't.

Her: I'm from San Francisco
You: I heard only homeless and gays live there.

Her: Actually, I don't like dancing
You: What? All Korean people love to dance!

Her: When I worked at The Gap, I dated a coworker
You: I didn't know straight guys working there!

.....

I know I've already said this, but it's worth repeating. Go watch the SimplePickup videos on YouTube if you want to see teasing in action.

Lately, teasing is meant to be fun, not to make someone feel rotten or agitated or to prove that you are better at trash-talking. So avoid the following subjects:

- Her weight
- Her age (if she is in her 20s)
- Religion
- Politics
- Racism (unless it's positive such as "hey, all Chinese people are good at math!")
- Something cruel
- Grotesquely sexual, profane or obscene
- Physical imperfections and handicaps (her height is OK, unless it's extreme at either end)

=======================

Mistake # 7 - Not suggesting yourself as a boyfriend

Most guys fear being too aggressive and scaring off the girl. So he doesn't present himself as a potential boyfriend until there's a closer friendship. So he waits and waits for that elusive "best timing".

Unfortunately, this prudent path is also a likely path to the friendzone. The act of waiting and hesitating makes him look beta, not a take-action kinda guy typical of a social leader. This is why many girls who might initially be attracted to a guy would suddenly lose interest. She's not being fickle. She simply failed to see leadership qualities.

We'll talk more about risk-taking in the final chapter of this series. For now, we need to understand that you need to implant the thought into her head quickly that you're interested in more than friendship. Many girls, particularly brainy Asian ones, are so socially dense that they will not see you as a potential boyfriend unless you convey your intentions.

There are three ways to convey your intentions, something the PUA community calls "creating a romantic frame".

First, you can frame with what you say. Here are a few sample passing comments you can make, in a joking manner, that conveys your intentions.

- "See ya at 10:00. Just to be sure, I'm not gonna make out with you"
- "I think my mom would approve of you. She hated my last girlfriend."
- "Just to let you know, I don't kiss on the first date".
- "Someday, you'll have to choose between me or your cat".
- "That's rude! You and I are sooooo getting a divorce".

It's OK to be bold as long as you say it in a light-hearted, funny, teasing way. You want to confuse her a bit, making her wonder if you were perhaps being 10% serious. This advice goes perfect with the previous article on teasing.

Second, you can frame with your eyes. Try looking at her in a slightly lingering way...perhaps a second or two longer than required. Or if she looks away, you continue looking at her so that when she looks back, she'll see you were looking.

Eye contact is really powerful stuff. We'll talk more about it in Chapter 11.

Third, you can frame with touching (or kino). Kino is huge and deserves it's own chapter. For now, just know that you need to escalate physically. During those first interactions, tap on her shoulder or the lower part of her arm to stress a point or if something funny is being said. Once a friendship builds, try touching more frequently. It should go from touching to side-hugging to frontal-hugging to kissing on the cheeks to even more advanced and daring kino. Slowly venture deeper until you sense some resistance.

Not only is kino a great way to build intimacy, it also allows you to judge how she sees you. Does she welcome your kino? Does she reciprocates or even escalates? Or does she wince away? If she winces away, do not assume this to be rejection. It only signals where she's drawing the line at the moment. It's probably worth reattempting later. If she repeatedly winces away at basic kino, it's not a good sign.

In all three framing strategies, you're doing something ordinary friends don't do. As such, it implants the necessary thought in her head that you could be more than just friends.

DLV: Friends first
DHV: Suggesting early that you can be more than just friends

=======================

Mistake #8 - Losing your cool

To be sure, it's often frustrating dealing with girls. She can get moody, suddenly shows interest and then disinterest (or vice versa), disrespects you, flakes on you, steps all over you, etc.

There are many reasons why girls might do this...

First, girls have massive egos and embedded with an Anti-S!ut Defense (ASD). If she feels you've rejected her, her ego will kick in and she will get fiesty and seek revenge. If she feels she's been "too easy" fawning all over you like an idiot, her ASD will activate and she'll withdraw.

Second, it can be a sh*t test. sh*t tests are obstacles girls erect (perhaps subconsciously) to test how much you like her. It's common amongst low self-esteem and less attractive girls.

Third, many Asian girls (particularly brainy ones) have retarded social skills because of courtship inexperience.

Lastly, you need to examine your own behavior and not pin it all on the girl. Have you engaged in DLV behavior that would repel a girl? Keep in mind that girls don't primarily based their attraction on a guy's physical appearance. She bases it mostly on whether you demonstrate social leadership. That perception can change quickly based on your behavior or inaction.

When encountering negative female behavior, many guys have reacted by...

- Telling the girl off
- Giving a cold shoulder or silent treatment
- Having that "pissed off" look on your face
- Talking trash behind her back
- Debating her to prove she's wrong
- Being petty and "getting even"
- Deleting her off your Facebook
- Confessing
- Crying

The most important thing for you learn here is, NEVER react to a girl's bad behavior. Every behavior I've listed is a courtship mistake.

High value males don't lose their cool. He retains control, does not react and laughs off, brushes off or ignores female nonsense. This is how you win respect and become her superior (and become attractive to her). If you react, a girl will feel control over you. She'd be the superior and you'd be her b-tch. Not the best way to demonstrate social leadership.

I know it's oftentimes difficult not to react. But you need your intellect to triumph over your emotions. Step back and think things over. Nothing good comes from losing your cool except satisfying your ego for five minutes. Not only will she become less attracted to you, if she tells her peers, they will lose respect for you too. This is how a man's social value spirals downward.

Yes, you need to react somewhat to bad behavior. But it must be subtle and she must not think you're reacting. Instead, she must believe you've genuinely lost interest. You can achieve this effect by becoming 20% less friendly. I assure you most girls are sensitive enough to notice it.

In any close friendship, serious arguments will happen. If you fight it out with her and relations take a hit, you need to be the one to approach her again. Never apologize if you didn't do anything wrong though. Just let bygones be bygones and be big enough to approach first.

DLV: Losing your cool
DHV: Being emotionally in control at all times

=======================

Mistake #9 - Confessing

First of all, let's define "confessing". My definition of confessing is, telling a girl directly, out-of-the-blue and in a serious tone that you're romantically interested. Most girls will advise you to do it, that you should “just tell her how you feel". Funny, most girls who give such shitty advice rarely follow it themselves. She usually won't confess because she'd feel it's the other person's job to confess first.

One of my first posts on AF was about confessing and why not to do it. Here's the argument…

If a girl isn't attracted to you, confessing won't suddenly change her mind. She's not going to think "wow, I'm so attracted to him now because he confessed!" Sure, she might try to reward your honesty by giving you a chance. But most of the time, she won't "feel it" and all she'd give is one or two pity dates. Surely, you don't want a girl to go out with you because she feels sorry for your ass.

There's two reasons why confessing makes her less attracted to you.

First, girls feel most passionate over a guy when she feels doubt. It's a natural human response. On the forum, notice girls go craziest when they post those endless "does he like me" threads. I've never seen girls go all insane over a guy who constantly showers her with attention.

Second, doubt is effective at building attraction because she lacks control over you. In a social arrangement, the superior is in control while the inferior is controlled. As I've said a billion times already, your job is to give the impression that you're her superior and a social leader. Therefore, you cannot surrender control by confessing.

However, you can't plant too much doubt or else she will withdraw, especially girls who lack confidence. Like putting a carrot in front of a horse, the girl must think you're still somewhat attainable.

Therefore, the formula to attracting a girl is...

PASSION = HOPE + DOUBT

Your courtship strategy is, always keep her slightly off-balance and guessing. Yes, you should show interest. But she must think whether your interest is genuine or whether it will endure. Most girls will deny it, but deep down, they indeed want guys who are hard-to-get.

Most guys feel the greatest urge to confess when things are going sour. So he impatiently throws a desperate Hail Mary which, ironically, loses the game immediately. The need to confess, therefore, is symptom of a bigger problem. And that is, he has failed to adequately attract the girl. So instead of throwing a Hail Mary, he should be a bit more patient and work on becoming more attractive.

DLV: Confessing
DHV: Keeping her guessing

=======================

Mistake #10 - Not getting her on a date

Unless you get a girl on a date, all that flirting and teasing stuff don't mean sh*t. Don't kid yourself. There's a human bond achievable only when people spend physical time alone. Not to mention, getting her on a date is an accurate way to judge how she feels about you since it requires her to invest time and effort.

Because dating is your ultimate goal in courtship, watch how you use the phone. The phone should only be used for one reason: to get her out. Don't have long text or phone conversations. That's what girls do with other girls. If she really enjoys interacting with you, she'd agree to do it in-person. If not, you're just her personal clown she turns to when bored.

There are two cardinal rules for asking a first or second date.

First, do it early in the courtship. She will think your invitation is just a normal part of your cool sociable personality and that you're a social leader who takes charge. If instead you wait forever for that "big moment", your request will come off as abrupt, pressuring and weird. This makes her less likely to accept. She will not react well if she feels creeped out.

Second, you need to ask casually. This is why "getting coffee" is so trendy these days. Don't use words like "date" or "go out". Don't offer to watch a movie or a walk on the beach. Avoid Fridays, Saturdays and other "special" days like Valentine's or her birthday. Your invite must sound like a passing casual remark, as if you're asking buddies to come over to play video games.

WRONG: "Are you free this Saturday night to watch a movie?
CORRECT: "Hey, let's go grab some coffee. "

WRONG: "I was wondering if you'd like to go out tomorrow night"
CORRECT: "Let's try some Indian food later. "

If she's unsure whether it's a "date" or just a friendly thing, you're on the right track. Trust me. If the outing goes well, there'd be plenty of opportunity to escalate.

You might not even want to ask but to command in a friendly humorous way...

- "Hey, I have a craving...come with me to get something at Starbucks"
- [on text message] hey get ur ass out, i gotta show u sumthing

Even if she's interested, expect her to give token resistance as part of her
Anti-Sl*t Defense. She might say NO, make some phony excuse or raise a fuss about the time and place. Just react in a light and teasing way and ask again.

- "Busy my ass!"
- "You can study for your midterms tomorrow"
- "Are you always such a pain in the ass?"

If she still refuses, let it go and ask again some other time. Remember the last article and don't show anger, spitefulness or disappointment in any serious manner.

Even if she agrees, you should expect possible flaking. If she does, it might mean you haven't attracted her enough. Or it might have nothing to do with you. Girls are emotionally unstable. They flake on guys, on girls, even on themselves. You must accept unstable female behavior if you're to succeed in courtship. This is why you need to cast a big net and be involved with multiple girls. If one flakes, text someone else to come out or just go home, jerk off and live to fight another day.

DLV - Hesitating on asking for a date
DHV - Asking for a date early

=======================

Mistake #11 - Displaying poor body language

Even if you know what to say to improve your courtship odds, all that becomes irrelevant if you display poor body language. For example, I advocated not letting a girl know you've fallen for her. But if your body language shows that you have, then all your efforts will be in vain. People infer a great deal from body language. There are studies that show 90% of your personality is conveyed nonverbally.

First, let's look at your eyes. We talked a bit about this in Article #6 to achieve a "romantic frame". But I want to go one step further and use eye contact to express general alphaness.

Your eyes are a dead giveaway if you're insecure, nervous or untrustworthy. You mustn't be afraid of looking someone in the eye when you speak (while glancing away momentarily for relief). You might think this is obvious, but I encounter people everyday who can't do that. I walk pass strangers in the halls at work and many would suddenly look downwards or away. When they do, I'd always feel a sense of alphaness over them.

Also, watch for shifty eyes. If you're talking to more than one person, don't shift your eyes when looking at each person. Move your head towards them instead.

The same about eye contact can be said for that cute stranger at a party. As long as you're not staring like a predator, your willingness to look will establish your dominance immediately. The trick is to look while having a slight, innocent smile on your face. Ideally, if eye contact is made, she's the one who looks away first.

Forget any notion that girls don't want to be "checked out". Girls don't obsess over their appearance because they don't want someone to look -- as long as you're not doing in a perverted way (i.e, looking at their breasts).

The worst thing to do is suddenly darting your eyes away if eye contact is established. If she sees you doing that, you've demonstrated that you're a creepy stalker because she knows you've been checking her out but you're terrified of being discovered. I know averting your eyes is often an involuntary response. If you do it, just look back at her immediately.

Second, let's look at your posture.

Many guys make the mistake of leaning into the girl when talking. Unfortunately, this conveys eagerness and fixation. The more you seem invested in her, especially when she hasn't earned you yet, the more beta you appear.

Instead of leaning in, stand straight or even lean slightly back. When seated, you must lean slightly away (but not slouching). If you do a good job interacting with her, you'd often find that she begins to lean towards you instead. Do not wrap your arms around yourself or fold your arms. The more space you take up, the more alpha you seem. Do not fidget with your hands or make unnecessary movements. The person who moves least is perceived as having more social value. The only exception is making minor hand gestures to accentuate something you've said.

The good news is, displaying proper eye and body language is simple. You just need to be conscious of it. I know this sounds gay, but you want to have a "glow" about yourself. You display this glow with your eyes, a slight smile and proper posture. You want to tell others nonverbally that you f**k*ng own the place and you just got laid.

The next time you interact with a girl, I want you to mentally recite this sentence to yourself: "I OWN THIS f**k*ng LITTLE sl*t". You might be surprised how you're suddenly less nervous and how your body responds as if it believes what you've said.

DLV: Poor body language
DHV: Confident body language

=======================

Mistake #12 - Not taking bold risks

There's many areas in courtship where you face rejection:

- Approaching the girl
- Making suggestive remarks
- Asking for a phone number or Facebook
- Touching
- Asking for a date

You need to do them all. There's no way you'll get anywhere in courtship (and in life) if you don't gamble and risk f**k*ng things up. Girls can get away with it. But society deems men to be leaders and initiators -- traits that the female brain is programmed to seek. You have to man up, grow a pair of balls and stop thinking you can land her without risk (or worst, that she will somehow come to you).

You also need to take risks early. You cannot wait for that "big moment" to touch or ask her out. If you do it early, it will almost seem trivial, as if it's just a normal part of your alpha personality. This makes it likelier for her to accept your advances. If you wait too long to make a move, it will look creepy, pressuring and abrupt.

Lastly, if you're rejected, do not assume it's game over. There are a myraid of reasons why she refused your advances. You'd find that many times, she "rejects" you only because she was shellshocked. Once she thinks it through, she might come around. So in facing "rejection", just try again later. Maybe give 3-4 chances before quitting. Even if you truly get rejected, it's better to have the band-aid pulled off immediately than slowly.

Some of you fear being aggressive and screwing things up. "She's the conservative type" or "girls like taking it slow". That's b*llsh*t. Even conservative shy types fantacize about being suddenly swept off her feet. The truth is, if a girl rejects you for asserting yourself (within reason), you probably never had a chance to begin with.

Of course, there's such a thing as being too aggressive.

- You're too aggressive if you're trying to force a resolution or to overcome persistant resistance.
- You're too passive if, when you ask yourself "when was the last time I took a real risk with her?" and the answer is "never", "rarely" or "it's been a while".

I know this is a dumb analogy, but it's like walking a dog. The dog is too aggressive if you feel constantly pulled from the leash. The dog is too passive if the leash is always slack. It's best to sometimes feel a bit of a tug.

The bottom line is, girls are attracted to guys who take risk and initiative. This has been an overarching theme of this series.

Of course, there's good and bad timing to risk-taking. One way to determine good timing is when you spot IOIs (indicators of interest). Here are a few types of IOIs (a fuller list will appear as a supplemental to this article). . .

Strong IOIs:
- She touches you repeatedly
- She suggests to hang out sometime
- She asks or volunteers her phone number

Weak IOIs (but IOIs nevertheless):
- She preens her clothing or hair
- She's inquisitive about your past
- When the conversation drags, she tries to prolong it
- She laughs at your stupid jokes

If you spot several IOIs, particularly strong IOIs, it's your sign to make a move. She's practically begging you! If you don't, don't be surprised if she loses interest. In addition to having her ego bruised, she will feel you've failed to demonstrate social leadership, which makes her less attracted.

Even if you don't spot any IOIs, you still need to roll the dice and take a gamble -- although you'll probably need to take smaller risks and be more subtle.

DLV: Not taking a risk
DHV: Taking bold risks and doing it early

=======================

Not finished yet...

Despite posting article #12, there will be at least three more articles before this series is complete.

=======================

Supplemental to Mistake #12 - Not taking bold risks

In Chapter 12, I talked about looking for IOIs (indicators of interest) to determine opportune times to escalate.

Remember that IOIs are not proof of interest, just indicators. No one can possibly know what's in her head. But if she shows many IOIs, particularly strong IOIs, there's increased chance she's interested and you need to escalate immediately. If you fail to show social leadership at such crucial moments, she may lose interest -- not necessarily because she's consciously punishing you but because she genuinely isn't attracted to guys who aren't social leaders and go-getters.

Strong IOIs:
- She asks for your phone number or volunteers hers
- She asks to "hang out sometime"
- She reinitiates conversations when you stop talking
- She touches you repeatedly
- She tries to get rapport and build comfort by agreeing with you
- She compliments you
- She holds eye contact for longer periods of time when she speaks with you
- She calls you a player or a heartbreaker
- On her way out, she reapproaches you to tell you that she is leaving
- On your way out, she asks you where you are going
- She invents reasons to be near you, interact with you, or have isolation with you
- If you move, she follows you or waits for you
- She has a fixated look on you (the "doggy dinner bowl" look)

Weak IOIs (but IOIs nevertheless!)
- While you're talking to her group, she is particularly talkative (to get your attention)
- She asks you for a light or the time or in any way that initiates conversation
- She introduces you to friends
- She's punching your arm but laughing
- She preens her hair or clothing
- When she says or does something, she looks at you to see your reaction
- She looks at you from the side, to hide the fact that she's looking
- She's inquisitive about your past
- She avoids mentioning her boyfriend
- She laughs at your stupid jokes
- She asks you for your name
- She asks you your age
- She says something to her friend and they both giggle
- She interrupts your conversation from nearby
- She looks back and glances at you repeatedly ever minute or so
- She asks if you have a girlfriend
- She mentions your girlfriend without knowing if you actually have one
- She is playful and tries to challenge you
- She's disagreeing but laughing
- When she is sitting next to you her leg touches yours
- She giggles
- Her friends goes away (to the bathroom or bar or dancing) but she stays with you
- She doesn't flinch or pull back if you happen to get too close
- She doesn't resist when you escalate physically (or she gives only token resistance per her ASD)

=======================

Three more quickie "mistakes"

If I were to expand this series to 15 “mistakes”, here would be three more common courtship mistakes...

Mistake #13 - Blabbing too much information

Many guys try building rapport by telling girls all about themselves, particularly his recent social activities and past relationships. This is a bad idea.

Instead, you need to maintain a bit of mystery. Don't volunteer excess information. If you avoid answering, she'll imagine all sort of crazy stuff about you. For example, if she asks what you did last weekend and you say "I'm not sure I should say", she'll think your weekend resembled the movie The Hangover. That's exactly what you want her to think. The same about your past relationships. Once she obsesses what you're not telling, it will make it likelier for her to develop interest for you. Not to mention, her persistent attempts to pry can be taken as a strong IOI.

Let's be honest. Most of us live pretty drab lives. So don't confirm it by expressing it. Also don't update all your happenings on Facebook.

DLV: Telling everything about yourself
DHV: Being mysterious


Mistake #14 - Expressing low standards

Don't be afraid to sound exclusive. No girl wants an easy guy who falls in love easily with anybody. If you have high standards, she'll assume you have options. If she thinks you have options, she'll assume you have lots of girls surrounding you (which is what you want her to think).

When she asks what you're looking for in a girlfriend, give detailed standards. Just make sure she's not excluded. For example, if she's Korean, don't say you only go for Chinese. Don't be afraid to talk about appearances either, as long as you're not obsessed with sexual body parts.

Also, talk about ex-girlfriends and girls you've dated and why they didn't make the cut. Make it sound like you've rejected girls. To avoid sounding conceited, also mention these girls' good traits and how it was a tough decision to dump them.

DLV: Desperate for any girlfriend
DHV: Having standards


Mistake #15 - Not being "macho"

Many guys try to adapt a particular girl's characteristics in a conscious or subconscious effort to be similar (a "good couple"). If she cries in movies, you cry. If ghost stories frighten her, you also get frightened. If she worries about not finding a job, you also worry.

This is a bad idea because most of the time, you assume feminine traits that makes you look totally beta.

Women are emotionally fragile and inherently seek men to be her leader and protector. You cannot be girlie or some chickenshit. Don't show excess worrying or trepidation. For example, if suddenly there's thunder, she will likely get scared or freaked-out. You cannot. When she's fragile, you need to show bravado...the guy who tells her "everything will be OK" or "there's nothing to be worried about" and that everything is under control.

DLV: Being feminine
DHV: Showing bravado

=======================

Mistake #16 - Not expressing sexuality (Part 1)

OK, I'm going to cheat on this series. I know I've already posted all twelve "mistakes". But there is no way I can let this series end without a more thorough discussion of touching (or kinoing). I need to include kinoing because I believe this is the second biggest reason why Asian guys fail in courtship.

Due to cultural norms, Asians are taught to be sexually passive and that sex is something to be done only after marriage. Asian culture clearly doesn't celebrate sex as much as, say, black or Hispanic culture. So whereas virtually all black and Latino guys have gotten laid by 16, most Asian guys haven't even landed their first girlfriend yet.

Most Asian guys think Asian girls want their bodies respected and that displays of sexuality is an inappropriate perversion. That is not how most girls think.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19085605

I will like to show Exhibit #1 (see above link). This article discusses an anonymous survey of 350 female college students. It reveals two-thirds of them admitted to having "rape fantasies". The researchers believe this number is higher but most girls won't admit it (even anonymously) due to religious, political or social beliefs.

This isn't some sophomoric survey done by Playboy or Maxim magazine but an academic research conducted by the Department of Psychology at the University of North Texas.

Now, I want to make it clear that I'm not advocating physical assault. Surely nobody likes physical pain and bodily harm. I just want to point out why women have these fantasies.

They're turned on by these fantasies not because of the sex or violence but because men are depicted as bold, dominating and physically assertive. Not surprisingly, trashy romance novels almost always depict near-rape situations for the heroine.

Interestingly, the reason girls have "rape fantasies" instead of "sex fantasies" is, it implies the girl first needs to resist the man. Society pressures women against being sl-tty -- so she puts up resistance so others wouldn't think of her that way. Her resistance gives her what PUAs call "plausible deniability", meaning she now has an alibi. With resistance, she's technically not a sl-t, so she can grant herself permission to want and enjoy sex.

Now that we've learned that your expressions of sexuality are actually desirable to girls, I'll talk about what to do with this knowledge in the next chapter.

Edited by JSBach, 08 January 2012 - 11:15 AM.


#2 flyingsolo

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Posted 24 June 2007 - 02:35 AM

i have to admit thats quite true :) ive actually played around with that before :D and see other guys do it too

#3 aznelite03

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Posted 24 June 2007 - 02:44 AM

haha I have to say most of that is true because I been there and done that and its good advice for the inexperience guys out there

#4 brucelee04

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Posted 24 June 2007 - 02:50 AM

i disagree....just cuz ur on the fone with her doesnt mean she'll lose respect for you...

maybe its not with all girls, but i believe that they do like to chat...if they feel close to you then they can talk to you about anything meaning that the fone convo will be enjoyable...

when i call my gf up we talk for hours...maybe cuz she my gf....but then when i didnt have a gf, i called girls up and talk for hours too...and they didnt mind, good times =) so i guess its not a screw up thing...but rather personal preference?

#5 Zenko

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Posted 24 June 2007 - 05:08 AM

How about you post something more useful LIKE HOW TO MAINTAIN A RELATIONSHIP, since this is a relationship forum. Ok I think we all get the point about acting hard-to-get in the beginning stages, but that still leaves a lot of people confused about what to do in the long run. And I'm sure people are more interested in long-term relationships rather than these short-term relationship tips you always give.

It's like you're teaching a man how to dive, but you don't teach him how to swim.
  • sweetcandy likes this

#6 tsukushi_ayu

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Posted 24 June 2007 - 05:59 AM

How about you post something more useful LIKE HOW TO MAINTAIN A RELATIONSHIP, since this is a relationship forum. Ok I think we all get the point about acting hard-to-get in the beginning stages, but that still leaves a lot of people confused about what to do in the long run. And I'm sure people are more interested in long-term relationships rather than these short-term relationship tips you always give.

It's like you're teaching a man how to dive, but you don't teach him how to swim.


lol i agree with this.

JS, why dont you give the guys better tips to MAINTAIN? maybe you can start a new topic but continue with this if you like. or you only have experience for 1-month courtship/relationship? :whistle


#7 twinkletoe

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Posted 24 June 2007 - 06:01 AM

It's sounds quite true, at least to me.

When the guy ends the conversation first, I would want to talk to him more. It just makes me curious, you know.

Looking forward to your other tips.

#8 iCanFly

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Posted 24 June 2007 - 06:17 AM

How about you post something more useful LIKE HOW TO MAINTAIN A RELATIONSHIP, since this is a relationship forum. Ok I think we all get the point about acting hard-to-get in the beginning stages, but that still leaves a lot of people confused about what to do in the long run. And I'm sure people are more interested in long-term relationships rather than these short-term relationship tips you always give.

It's like you're teaching a man how to dive, but you don't teach him how to swim.

well I think the reason to why there isn't tips to MAINTAINing relationships is because they dunno how. haha working one step at a time here.. 1st things 1st.
play hard to get! haha

well hard to get works but doesn't...I try to make it so that I have time for the girl, but i guess these girls who arent' alllured by that just don't appreciate guys who are conciderate.
humm that didn't actually come out the way I wanted it to. oh well.
yah keep on coming, let's see #2 soon haha so I can compare my notes

#9 Guest_complete_love_*

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Posted 24 June 2007 - 06:32 AM

Well, there are people who like reading this kind of stuff so they can learn what the heck is going on or whatever you wanna call it. I think these tips can be useful, so I can't wait until all ten are up.

#10 master-m

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Posted 24 June 2007 - 05:03 PM

lol thats just quite true.. but not all the girls like that... so just continue to #2 :)

#11 lting77

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Posted 24 June 2007 - 05:51 PM

isn't that one of the rules in the book 'the rules' written by empower feminist author?

#12 asachan00

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Posted 24 June 2007 - 06:23 PM

it could be true, it could be not...since my brother talks to his ex everyday...24/7.. i meant he leaves the phone on even when they don't talk & just fall asleep w/ it on...iono what they talk about but yeah....she doesn't lose respect for him..but likes him a lot...although he doesn't like her in tat way so broke up w/ her...they still talk on the phone for hrs even after the break up...she still seems to like him a lot...so it's depends to certain people...not all.

#13 JSBach

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Posted 24 June 2007 - 07:14 PM

What if the conversation is just really interesting.


That's actually the perfect time to hang up.

Do you want to have an interesting conversation or do you want her to be interested in you?

Don't you think the best time to hang up is when she wants to talk to you more or when she's tired of talking to you?

#14 leeniepk

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Posted 24 June 2007 - 09:08 PM

That's actually the perfect time to hang up.

Do you want to have an interesting conversation or do you want her to be interested in you?

Don't you think the best time to hang up is when she wants to talk to you more or when she's tired of talking to you?


so what if... the conversation was really interesting..things are heating up. You hang up. The girl was like ok.... moving on. There was no chemistry to begin with so why would she even be interested. It's rude to hang up in the middle of the conversation.
Playing hard to get when there isnt even anything to get in the first place? That wont work. In reality, the guy would just continue w/ the conversation. Communication is important to jumpstart a relationship.

#15 K5TKF

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Posted 24 June 2007 - 10:59 PM

I honestly don't think that's good advice. Most girls like to talk to their boyfriend for a while, like me. It helps build a friendship on top of the relationship. And if you have a lot to say, or just like talking to the other, it's not wise to hang up unless someone suggests it. After I hang up on a 3 hour long conversation, I'm not bored with him; on the contrary, I'm even more interested in him and satisfied with our relationship. Some girls might be different, but I'm sure quite a few enjoy having long conversations with their boyfriend.

If a girl doesn't feel like having an idle conversation when a guy calls her, it does NOT mean for sure that she doesn't like the guy.

Also, if a guy purposely didn't answer his phone when I called, I'd be sooo pissed.

Edited by K5TKF, 24 June 2007 - 11:08 PM.


#16 Microcosm

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Posted 24 June 2007 - 11:08 PM

I honestly don't think that's good advice. Most girls like to talk to their boyfriend for a while, like me. It helps build a friendship on top of the relationship. And if you have a lot to say, or just like talking to the other, it's not wise to hang up unless someone suggests it. After I hang up on a 3 hour long conversation, I'm not bored with him; on the contrary, I'm even more interested in him and satisfied with our relationship. Some girls might be different, but I'm sure quite a few enjoy having long conversations with their boyfriend.

If a girl doesn't feel like having an idle conversation when a guy calls her, it does NOT mean for sure that she doesn't like the guy.

Also, if a guy purposely didn't answer his phone when I called, I'd be sooo pissed.


Read the first post, this advice isn't for people already in a relationship.

#17 K5TKF

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Posted 25 June 2007 - 02:03 AM

^I just don't think it's good advice; it might cause an end to a relationship, I'm just saying...
Btw, I'm not in a relationship anymore.

#18 fall_out

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Posted 25 June 2007 - 03:54 AM

OH MY GOD! it all makes sense now! so true, yet ive been blinded from this aspect of life!

but where is 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9 and 10!

#19 Unmei

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Posted 25 June 2007 - 04:24 AM

OH MY GOD! it all makes sense now! so true, yet ive been blinded from this aspect of life!

but where is 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9 and 10!


haha same

he will post 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9 and 10 but post one every couple of days,i really want to see his next tip too

#20 markto

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Posted 25 June 2007 - 08:06 AM

i kinda disagree with this, becuz if the guy or grl makes the environment fresh, and not boring.. no matter how long they talk... it would not be boring... but yes if the thing they talk about is boring and the phone call contains pauses... its definitely not good.

#21 most_wanted

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Posted 27 June 2007 - 11:18 AM

I read this earlier, and tried it, and the girl picked up and we still talked for an hour.

#22 Waigin

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Posted 27 June 2007 - 01:08 PM

i disagree....just cuz ur on the fone with her doesnt mean she'll lose respect for you...`


I agree with you, she will not loose respect but loose the chance to be more interesting in you.

when i call my gf up we talk for hours...maybe cuz she my gf....but then when i didnt have a gf, i called girls up and talk for hours too...and they didnt mind, good times =) so i guess its not a screw up thing...but rather personal preference?


The tips is before to have a girlfriend. He`s not talking about when you have one. It`s different when you have one

How about you post something more useful LIKE HOW TO MAINTAIN A RELATIONSHIP, since this is a relationship forum. Ok I think we all get the point about acting hard-to-get in the beginning stages, but that still leaves a lot of people confused about what to do in the long run. And I'm sure people are more interested in long-term relationships rather than these short-term relationship tips you always give.

It's like you're teaching a man how to dive, but you don't teach him how to swim.


Like you can see, the guy is able to get girls but not able to go further with them.... :whistle

What if the conversation is just really interesting.


That`s always pending of the conversation, sometimes, you can continue a little longer and say I`m sorry, I have to go and the next time, you continue the same conversation or you invite her to meet to be able to continue it, like the next day or 2. And sometimes, you continue to the end

lol thats just quite true.. but not all the girls like that... so just continue to #2 :)


No, but most of them are

That's actually the perfect time to hang up.

Do you want to have an interesting conversation or do you want her to be interested in you?

Don't you think the best time to hang up is when she wants to talk to you more or when she's tired of talking to you?


I don't agree with you. an interesting conversation can bring you closer in a relation, pending of the subject of conversation

I honestly don't think that's good advice. Most girls like to talk to their boyfriend for a while, like me. It helps build a friendship on top of the relationship.


When you have a girlfriend or boyfriend, you can talk as long as you want and it's fine but when you don't have one, the tip is good to get the interest of the girl in the guy.

#23 s2 sOr mUi

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Posted 28 June 2007 - 09:02 AM

not really~..
coz i always call my bf up and he always calls me up to tell me how much he luvs me..
even if i was single ~!...

i like to know that i am something to someone not just a no-body~....

#24 Waigin

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Posted 28 June 2007 - 01:01 PM

2. Saying the perfect things to her

IBut think about it. Your parents don't say perfect things to each other -- and yet they still love each other.



By the way JSBach, this one is really wrong, yes of course, our parents don't always say the perfect things, but at the beginning YOU HAVE TO DO IT, and with time, the other will learn, the negative things on you and will accept it more easier than if she see everything at the beginning. I'm talking by experience here, I have 37 and I date many girls in my life.

The rest of the info you're saying about the number 2 is completely wrong on the other things. You should revise it.

At the beginning you have to play your best cards to get the girl, and the girl play the best cards that she has to get you interested in her and with time, the lower cards will fall on the table and it's normal and it's fine. You don't do that at the beginning unless you want to loose the game.

#25 fall_out

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Posted 29 June 2007 - 03:20 AM

ZOMG! this whole time, i had no idea, why am i cursed with such a perfect tounge! hath i known this sooner... SPEAK DAMN YOU, TELL US MORE!

#26 Hyuuo

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Posted 29 June 2007 - 11:29 AM

Omg that is like so true, talking long makes u sound clingy so its like a huge turn off for like bf material at like a young age. NOt to sure when ur older like ur 30s. Just nice or respectful to just talk long i guess

#27 Riella

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Posted 30 June 2007 - 06:39 PM

hey, thanks for the first 2 tips. Do continue!

Though these tips may not apply for all cases, but I found myself nodding as I read your tips. You're right. Guys who always call the girls and pay girls compliments are no fun to be with.

#28 Microcosm

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 03:44 AM

Why don't you put all the tips onto your first post? It's hard to find everything and put it together ><

#29 Silver-Dragon

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 04:06 AM

Yeah, can you just edit the first post and add in the new ones. I think so far all 3 mostly or a bit true in general. Of courze, it always depends on the person since not every girl is the same.

#30 adjhaii

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 07:09 AM

Hmm.. that's true to extent(to me, Im a girl)
Because .. yes some girls like guys that can be "superior" .. in a sense & some girls do like guys that they can step all over.. *my friends*

But when girls do step all over the guy, I don't know if they fully respect them as their bf. :closedeyes: As I think you're implying.

#31 jmilton

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 11:38 PM

... most of this doesn't make sense.. it mighta worked in highschool.. but in college+/work environments, the guy will get messed following these ideas.

#32 Guest_complete_love_*

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Posted 04 July 2007 - 07:07 PM

Hey I'm wondering where did you get these tips from? Did you write them up yourself?
It's pretty interesting stuff to read, but of course, it doesn't apply to everyone.

Edited by complete_love, 04 July 2007 - 07:07 PM.


#33 Siyou

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Posted 04 July 2007 - 11:23 PM

course it doesnt apply to everyone, i mean these are all hit and miss according to your experiences, if all of these (and the more to come) pertained to u at this point u mustve been in every relationship imaginable and if ur reading this still u must have been dumped numerous times as well... the way i see it, the information given (so far) is definitely applicable... however as a previous comment suggested, wat about college relationships seeing how those type are indeedly different, that doesnt exempt the fact that it can and might just happen to you. these are definitely more useful than most things ive heard and ive seen my friends in these situations. Not for the feeble minded...

#34 justm_e

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Posted 05 July 2007 - 06:48 PM

5. Being too romantic

Inexperienced guys think you need to aggressively sweep a girl off her feet with roses, love letters and sweet words. Isn't this what girls swoon over in chick flicks, romance novels and love songs?

WRONGGGGG!! Two reasons why being aggressively romantic is a turn off. First, in order to get her interested, you must keep her guessing. When you're being too romantic, you are confirming your affection. Not good. If she's unsure, she'll go nuts and spend hours on the phone seeking advice from friends. The more unsure she is, the more obsessed she becomes. The more obsessed she becomes, the more she will like you.

Second -- and more importantly -- girls develop interest in a guy gradually and slowly. When you're being aggressively romantic, you are forcing the issue and pressuring her to make a decision. Instead of reciprocating your affection, she will likely run. You can never pressure a girl to like you. Instead, you must exercise patience and let her slowly develop an emotional attachment. When doing it correctly (read my tips), it will slowly creep up on her until one day...BOOM!!...she suddenly realizes she can't live without you.

So if you have to give a gift, it should be something humorous and not romantic. Giving a dozen roses is a NO-NO. Writing a romantic poem is a NO-NO. These types of gifts exerts pressure and implies you're demanding something in return. Instead, give something silly, cute and imaginative with a funny note and with no strings attached. This is a more effective way to win her affection than your lame corny romantic babble.



although i don't agree with the first poine u mentioned, i agree with u on this one. But once a while i would like to receive flowers, maybe not a bunch, just one rose will do the trick. girls like to see some suprizes once a while, by the way, are u an expert or something?where do u get all these ideas, from ur own experience? u're not bad as a bf

#35 JSBach

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Posted 05 July 2007 - 07:50 PM

however as a previous comment suggested, wat about college relationships seeing how those type are indeedly different, that doesnt exempt the fact that it can and might just happen to you. these are definitely more useful than most things ive heard and ive seen my friends in these situations. Not for the feeble minded...


I'm writing this thread with college and older relationships in mind. If I were writing for high schoolers, I would advise guys to join the football team, lower their Acuras and buy a leather jacket.

Of course, these tips doesn't apply to everyone. No tip can apply to everyone. But human emotion is quite predictable and universal and most of these tips will apply to a vast majority of people.

What is idle chatter? Is it a person responds to the other very slowly.


Idle chatter is when she calls and says "oh nothing's up, just calling to say hey". Talk for about 10 minutes and then tell her "I gotta go now" and make up an excuse to disconnect.

Long talks are reserved for face-to-face encounters (i.e., on a date). If she likes you, she'd rather talk to you in-person on a date anyway. If she prefers to do long talks over the phone, it's a sign she thinks of you only as a friend or she has identifed you as the stupid schmuck who entertains her whenever she's bored.

Edited by JSBach, 05 July 2007 - 09:14 PM.


#36 xvi3txl0v1ngx

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Posted 06 July 2007 - 04:03 PM

2. Saying the perfect things to her

"Your last boyfriend worked at the Gap? I thought only gay guys worked there!"


or "You play basketball?! Girls can't play basketball!"

If a guy ever say a line like the first one, he's off my list for sure.
the second line i can play along.

I do agree with some of the things you say. the phone thing would work. it would keep me thinking about him for a while, but after that, i won't remember much since the conversation was so short lol.

#37 ud867

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Posted 07 July 2007 - 11:46 AM

I do think a lot of your list applies. But in #4 if it's still so early you're pretending you don't care whether or not she shows up on the date, it's kind of hard to condone lying to her, because you're just going to end up lying more and more. And most of what you're saying is all about power. I don't know what kind of relationship you'd end up having if you followed all of these tips. I might as well arm wrestle with her.

#38 jencarter7012

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Posted 07 July 2007 - 10:09 PM

:thumbdown i really disagree with taht....honestly...its not kewl.... i would not lose respect in my boyfriend in that case. I would like it more if he called mroe jus to talk rather than me callin all the time...yet im the one to blame sometimes...but still i would like it more and no respect is lost...and i really think its kewl if he did that...so i definately disagree with that one!

okay... :lame: :lame: i disagree with all this...i think its b/c i am definately all about the romantic type...i love the things like the movies...ESPECIALLY KOREAN DRAMA...those are cool to watch...but my bf says it overated and NOT REAL..i have to agree but its kewl to actually have a bf be like that...and ill admit i remember a time where my BF couldnt do it any better...basically the drama: Winter Sonata he remade that for me and him to experience in the snow and everything it was soo ADORABLE and i will never forget that night and it was like 8 months okay...so im pretty impressed and i remember quite well... I LOVE HIM....

point bein i disagree with your reasonin b/c its not too true in my opinion but im more like the drama and ROMANTIC TYPE...never had a person be like that and i jus love the idea

#39 JSBach

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Posted 08 July 2007 - 02:17 AM

If a guy ever say a line like the first one, he's off my list for sure.


If a guy has to walk on eggshells to ensure he never offends her, he's the type of Nice Guy who will fail with her.

It's OK to risk being somewhat controversial. Because from experience, the more uptight a girl is, the less date-able she is. It's no fun being with someone with zero sense of humor and gets pissy and offended over everything. So it's a good screening test to weed out the undesirables.

Of course, a guy should never say something controversial over issues of race, nationality, religion, handicap and other stuff that's in bad taste. There is always a line to respect.

I do think a lot of your list applies. But in #4 if it's still so early you're pretending you don't care whether or not she shows up on the date, it's kind of hard to condone lying to her, because you're just going to end up lying more and more. And most of what you're saying is all about power. I don't know what kind of relationship you'd end up having if you followed all of these tips. I might as well arm wrestle with her.


I'm not sure I understand your last sentence.

So what? If she flakes on you, you get mad and cry to her? What do you suggest then that wouldn't make the guy look like whiny and clingy? Nobody respects whiny clingy guys.

There's nothing wrong with lying to her when she lied to you first.


okay... :lame: :lame: i disagree with all this...i think its b/c i am definately all about the romantic type...i love the things like the movies...ESPECIALLY KOREAN DRAMA...those are cool to watch...


It's hard to respond to someone who takes korean dramas that seriously. :wasntme

That's alright...enjoy being innocent while you still can...before becoming a cynical fart like me! :wasntme

Edited by JSBach, 08 July 2007 - 02:35 AM.


#40 adjhaii

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Posted 08 July 2007 - 04:15 AM

I agree with number 6.
I was watching a Psychology of monogamy class & the Dr. said almost the same thing :lol?:




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